Dear Stinkin’ Thinkin’ Readers,
We are hanging it up for a while. It’s a quality of life decision. Presently, we’re going to take the blog offline and archive some of the posts, threads, and resources so that they are accessible. We will get all that back up as soon as possible. We’ll be around this movement, but we’re done blogging, now. We will probably reincarnate Stinkin’ Thinkin’ in the future in some form.
Our Neverending Thread has become a sort of commons where people have connected with each other. So, we want to offer some alternative online meeting-places here, where people can regroup. And we’ll keep this post up for a couple of days, so that people can make some decisions about where to relocate. Perhaps someone can quickly set up a message board, forum, yahoo group, facebook group, or blog. There’s also:
(Please add others in the comments.)
Thank you, everyone, for contributing so much to Stinkin’ Thinkin’. We had no idea that it would turn into anything more than just a place for two cranks to rant at each other. It has been an true honor to work and play with you all.
Mark and Ilse
Thanks Ilse and Mark. That was a great ride. Thanks to all the contributors as well. Now go outside and watch the trolls come out of their troll holes dancing a jig singing ding dong the witch is dead. Batshit!
Thanks for the ride, it was fun. Good luck to you both
rarely have we seen a person fail….
http://vision.about.com/od/eyeexaminations/f/How-Does-Drinking-Alcohol-Affect-Your-Eyes.htm
A bit of a shock to say the least. Thank you much for the time and effort you both expended. I’ll skip the ‘trudging the road’ bit, but I will miss ST.
I’m sorry to see you go! stinkin thinkin really helped me! Good luck! Luther Blissett
Loved to follow this blog , very informative sad to see it go.
Good luck in your other ventures, Eddy
Im very sorry to see the “entire” blog shut down. I appreciate the time and the support I received on St. I will miss it.
Thankyou
O,Stinkin’ Thinkin’,
Thank you for being here when I needed you the most. I’m really sad.
I hope we can continue the conversation … I’m open to suggestions!?
I can well understand a decision to move forward and away from the problem.
We had a strong, dynamic group on X-Steppers several years ago, addressing numerous issues on the old MSN site, which unfortunately lost information in the transition.
You’ll find us occasionally rally for a few weeks and then again return to our normal lives.
I certainly reccommend Orange for his continual diligence in adding information and answering questions.
The best to both of you.
Kelly
Thanks to both of you for all you’ve done.
without_aa:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/without_aa/
Thank you both for ST. It has been very useful to me as a deprogramming tool. Good luck to both of you.
Really going to miss Stinkin Thinkin. I always looked forward to reading the blog daily. Thanks to everyone involved!
Well, that’s a bummer. Here’s to a Phoenix like return at some point.
What wonderful messages to receive from people who loved the site and will miss it and you guys — me too!
I was mostly just a lurker, but I’m really going to miss ST. The information I learned here led me to make some important changes in the way I approach my profession.
Thank you for everything.
You’re both great writers and that’s part of what made this a special place. I will miss you a lot.
Best wishes to both of you.
Best to you, Ilse and Mark, and thank you for offering a forum that served well to remind me what I DON’T want to “keep coming back” to.
bsm (step-free since 2007)
Mark & Ilse,
I am so shocked and sad! No no this can not be true. This is what they the pro AA ‘ers want. This is the most powerful anti AA exposing site around today!
Please reconsider when you feel up to it. I will try to figure a way to create a place for us to go ….I will do a radio show tomorrow called Criminals in AA/NA meetings and it’s culture. I am not sure of the time but I am sure it will be earlier in the day. PLease anyone contact me at makeaasafer@gmail.com or Safe Recovery on blogtalkradio http://www.blogtalkradio.com/saferecovery
again I am very very sad to see this happen.
massive
I hope you reincarnate the site sooner than later!
Maybe just having some time to regroup would help.
The site has so many good resources and dialogue I hope to see it come back soon. I hate to see bullies get their way.
For those wanting to reconnect there is Massive at stop 13 step in AA on the above link and JR over at the Orange forum,and you are always welcome at http://www.nadaytona.org.I am sure the other links are great as well.
Thanks Ilse and Mark for all your time and effort.
You have made a difference and inspired others to blog about the problems of AA. I hope to hear from you guys soon!
So, the curtain closes on Act II. It is a sad moment indeed. So many have been helped here, including me.
My suggestion is to take specific threads and focused subjects and turn them into Sribd mini-books. Dozens of them. Then write one about how you had to give up a controversial blog because of death threats and help other blog owners deal with it. You have value beyond measure from the time running this site.
Look in your hand grasshopper. It is full of diamonds. What will you do now?
Best of the best and thank you so much.
PJ
I’m happy to have had the chance to be part of ST. I’ll miss the reading and chatting. It was a great blog! and helped me transition out of AA. I blog at orange’s forum as well(avogadno),if you want to say hi/continue chatting.
Thanks for everything ilse, Mark! And everyone at ST as well.
It is a sad day, indeed, but thanks to both of you for all you’ve done.
Thanks for united strenghth that this has provided for me and all. Not knowing we were alone in our thinking was a great thing, but that is how we ended up in the rooms also. If i had not found this blog I would probaly still be there as many others would. So thanks for the push to move on from this chapter of my life. Although i will no doubt be lurking on some other Anti 12 step blog, for a while anyway.
Wow, didn’t see that coming. I got a lot of support from you guys and gals. Most of all I realized I wasn’t crazy for thinking AA is a nuthouse. Thank-you.
Just my thoughts in video format as usual.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZwFHhs0BK0
Sorry to see ST closed.
Well done for all the work.
Jimmy
Thank you both so much for everything you have done. I am sad this turned out the way it did, but understand this decision.
I do hope for a time for this thing to be what it was.
I also would like to add that where ever you two go in life, understand that you have saved lives by facilitating this much needed discussion.
This movement is not over. I sincerely hope the regulars here will continue to show up around the internet.
Thank you so much Mark and Ilse!
Decon…..
Thanks to Ilse, Mark, and all of the rest of you for contributing to this important cause.
Some of you have quite a bit of your time and energy contributing to this effort… It’s sad to see it end like this.
I’m hopeful that all of that work will not be lost.
Special thanks to Sober PJ… James… Mike… causeandeffect… massiveattack.
I hope this is just a temporary hiatus to recharge batteries and work on the tan. Looking forward to seeing you back soon rested and ready. Best wishes and regards to you both, and to all who have contributed their time, talents and passions to making a difference in all this.
Thanks G2K.. you take care of yourself ..
Guess they didn’t want to stop it badly enough.
Why not let people take over as moderators. Why shut it down?
Heard about the death threats. If that is the case, I apologize for the above comment, and I hope you went to the police.
Nice fuckin serenity, eh?
Thanks to one and all, I will miss you.
;-(
this site changed and probably saved my life.. I am really distraught about it being shut down!!
It was such an intelligent and thoughtful site and I doubt it can be re-produced.. 
Thanks for everything and I hope that we all find each other somewhere else..
This song is ended, but the melody lingers on.** The sound of the AA critical will continue to be heard, of that I am sure.
When you think about it the remarkable thing is how long it took for recognizable threats of violence against the creators of this blog to emerge.
Ever reminding us to take real principals* very seriously indeed.
Thank you my friends, for everything.
* as distinct from the unrecognizable manipulations that pass for principals in AA
** with apologies to Irving Berlin
Thank you for the work you did. Being a gadfly is hard, tiresome work. I hope you will allow the posts/threads to just simply still exist. There are countless others out there who may need to read them someday.
oh wow, i don’t quite know what to say except – THANKYOU!!! At a crossroads in my life I stumbled across this wonderful site and i don’t know if I would have had the courage to make the changes which see me in such a happy place today without it.
WSS, if you’re reading this, you had asked me about why i left aa on the recent geographical thread. i had typed it up and was going to post it soon. same with Rick who responded on the same thread. i had wanted to expand on the discussion, but part of me not doing so was a feeling of unsease about putting this stuff permanently on the net. then all the stuff that exploded this week on the blog kinda sent me scurrying into my shell. perhaps another time we will all cross paths again and continue these discussions.
SoberPJ, thanks for the banter
Mark, thanks for the kindness
Ilse, thanks for the hard work
everyone else, thankyou for existing and best wishes for the future
My biggest congratulations to Ilse and Mark for running a very slick, readable, engaging, informative, bloody brilliantly set-out website!
now i’m going to go out enjoy the sunshine, and live this life!
WOW, AAers do ruin everything. Good luck and a good life to Mark, Ilse and everyone else here.Except the trolls and douchebags that send threats.
I think many of us gained a lot of pleasure from ST and I too am sorry to see this situation come to pass. The last terribly defamatory thread comments were all deleted probably in the hope that responsibilty for the accusations of rape and murder and encouragement for baseless complaints against his license to impact his financial life, and all the terrible and false character traits ascribed to him would not fall to the site owners. Hopefully the rapid closure of the site and deletions (only of that thread) will satisfy the harmed party.
I’d encourage him as one member to another to not take any further actions and just let this drop, as these people ultimately met him more than half way and there is nothing to be gained by going any further in this matter.
As someone who also was similarly trashed at great length unmercifully, I can assure him it’s all quite meaningless when one considers the difficulties these people must deal with and is quickly forgotten. They just lack a place where they fit and show that by their frenzy which would shock Gaddafi’s captors when they see any potential subject for their pent up angst.
I would definately take the high road at this point and let it go, were I the one deciding. And, doing so would put a fitting end to a crowd who thought we weren’t sincere. A last kindness to those who don’t in the least merit it.
I’m still in a bit of shock here. I cannot thank everyone enough for the support I’ve gotten at ST. Much of my sentiments have already been expressed above, but I’m so happy to know I wasn’t alone in my feelings towards AA and ST showed me the way there. I was able, while getting some support (& great articles!@) at ST to shut certain elements out of my life that had been still hurting me relating to aa/na, and it made all the difference in that critical period for me of starting to get this in the past (while fighting for others who might end up hurt in the present).
Thank you so much, and I wish you all the best.
Ghod. Fuck you, JD. You’re an idiot.
Here here!
G2k, remember when we did the tri-fold-flyer?
Not going to question your decision, but if you must shut it down completely, consider handing the reigns over to someone else. Some of the articles should go on archive. Perhaps Orange Papers might be willing to put them up if you ask? If not, there has got to be someone out there who really really really hates AA with a vengeance.
I just saw mention of this site closing on 12 Step Coercion Watch:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-Step_Coercion_Watch/
I’m of course disappointed, but it’s perhaps not so surprising. Steppers will go to “any length” (and they really do mean ANY length!) to “stay sober and help others achieve sobriety” through AA and ONLY through AA, to the exclusion of any and all other ideas. I can only imagine what might have gone on behind the scenes.
I hope yall will continue to be strong, and once again pick up the campaign to tell others the truth about 12-step groups as and when you can.
For Greta and others terribly unhappy or disturbed by the shutdown of the site, please check out the other sites mentioned, and introduce yourself in one or more of them. Many of those posting here are on several of the other sites as well, and we’ll be happy to have you in those forums.
There’s also 12 Step Free run by Ken Ragge, I see it’s mentioned in the announcement above. It has had less discussion in recent months and years, and Ken has started a discussion about whether he should shut it down. We’re hoping the archives at least will stay up, as it’s a resource of a huge number of messages about steppism and the happenings related to it over the last decade and more. Here’s the link so you don’t have to scroll to the top to get to it:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/12-step-free/
And while I’m here, I want to mention the long-running thread “Why do people insist AA is not religious?/Efficacy of AA & other treatment programs” on the James Randi Educational Forums:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=180683
It’s quite cantankerous, with a roughly equal number of skeptics and pro-12-step believers/promoters on it. The site (and other skeptic sites, as has been discussed on Stinkin’ Thinkin’) could always use more people familiar with the underbelly of 12-step groups to go there and post about it.
Thanks all for your hard work (and some fun) here, and best wishes for the future!
I just registered over at Orange Papers Blog as Truebeliever, my original ST name. Disclosure was taken.
I saw G2K and other friends over there.
Life goes on…
Try and MA… and speedy… good knowing ya. Your creativity inspired a lot. Go do something fun… hut stay in the trenches helping those who need your unique help.
Some of you ought to check out the http://WWW.city-data.com/forum site and then select health subforums, then mental health for discussions on recovery. It is heavily moderated though.
Have fun, take a break, and I hope to see yous in cyberspace.
Sorry, I meant ftg, not try. Stupidphones.
Thanks, everyone.
I just wanted to let you know that we’re going to do some housework on the blog and put it back up as a museum, with the comments off. It might take a little while to do that. We just wanted to get it down and clear our heads a bit.
This decision was not based on the events of the last few days — although those events did force an issue that Mark and I have been skirting around for a while. A lot of our time is consumed with the blog: running it, writing, interacting, emailing about it, talking about it, worrying about it… There were so many other ways I wanted to spend my weekend, and I was really looking forward to it. Losing three days to the blog really made it clear that we need to put that time and energy into things that are going to contribute to our quality of life in some way. I want to devote myself to the book I’m writing with Stanton and to getting back to school.
And finally, helping JD find his new BFF has made it all worth it. Our work here is done.
xo to all. Thank you so much.
This blows, sorry, but I like reading this blog:(
I’ll miss you guys
And, Diablo aka Danny Bennison is my favorite blog post evah
Ilse & Mark,
I am stunned! I thought I would out grow ST and move on. I never thought it would be shut down. ST helped me deal with my anger concerning the injustice and criminal behavior that was perpetrated on me by AA ASSHOLES (guess I’m still working on it)! Hopefully ST can re-emerge soon.
Ilse, You helped me a lot when I was threatened. I had to take a leave of absence for a while. To those that don’t know, it was because I posted flyers at the church stating there were sexual predators at our AA meeting across from the Youth Group. The Pastor had the AA co-secretary-Holly (my boyfriend’s ex-wife & paralegal and co-sec Heidi,a Psych Nurse Practitioner) take care of me. For almost 4 weeks, Holly tried to get me declared mentally unstable for warning the parishioners of the sexual assaults on me. We went through three proceedings and the final one Holly submitted my ST posts as evidence. We got them through “Discovery” ; legal share of evidence-mandatory. Holly had altered 4 of my posts and submitted as legal evidence-who is the unstable one?? At that point, everything fell by the wayside. Initially, I was told I couldn’t blog, be anti AA and that my lawsuit against AA (which I didn’t have) was fabricated (she even agreed in our meeting of the known problematic guys in our group). I have won this part thanks a lot to Ilse’s help. I am not done and only stopped blogging because I couldn’t be authentic and had to concentrate on Holly and her bullshit. If there is any retaliation, bullying, blackmailing, etc for me exercising my Constitutional Rights; I will pursue them to the maximum extend of the law. This is the abbreviated, abbreviated version. I will not be bullied!
With a tear in my eye, I must say I understand and respect your decision and the reasons for it. This site represents the very best documentation of the abuses that are the program of AA. I was initially very frightened when I first realized that all my suspicions about AA were correct. Then I found this site and gained so much strength from all of you every day. I’m so glad to know it will be left up for posterity to help others going through the same process of finding true freedom. It’s been a beautiful thing to see others gaining their strength as well. This site has been about compassion for those who have been brainwashed and suffered needlessly at the hands of the corrupt bill wilson. I will miss you all so much. I hope we can get together elsewhere. I’m really sad about this coming to a close. Thank you all so much, especially Ilse and Mark for your exceptional, incisive writing. Nothing can compare to you.
I believe you put a nice ding in the Trojan Horse. Thank you very much. Ganbatte.
Ilse,
Congratulations on the book! I did not know that you were writing a book. Is it about AA. If so the blog information and experience should be very beneficial.
Best Wishes and thanks to you and Mark. ST helped me through a very difficult time.
Thank all of you for nice words.
As for JD’s words, he is a prime example of the sociopathic and and abusive behavior we tried to highlight on ST. I assure you that in whatever form we plan to present what was written on our blog, JD’s shenanigans will remain for the comic relief of all. It was actually JD’s ability to respond on cue that allowed us to carry on to this point, and it’s apropos that he would show up one last time to allow me to give him one last cyber wedgie. Thank you, JD, for being the self-lampooning stooge that are. Your work here won’t be soon forgotten. Salute!
As for the character of Jim Bock, the leader of the Sponsorship Group in Chatham, New Jersey; we will include any posts and references to him, as well. Including the previously unposted fact that a Jim Bock happened to be checked into the same hotel in Miami that has the IP address which sent the violent threat in our comment section two nights ago. Yes, we have contacted law enforcement. Even someone as obtuse as JD can connect those dots. The fact that he would defend this guy tells a lot about his character.
We had been discussing ending our blog for a few days, even before this last episode of crazy; and we didn’t shut things down because of it – although it was emblematic of the morose feeling which enveloped both of us as we delved further into the AA worm hole. It’s ironic that neither of us have ever been AA members, but engaging with those who were, and especially with those who still are, gave us a sense of its darkness when it’s applied one’s psychological make-up. It allowed me to see how it sucked you in, and to appreciate the courage it took to crawl from that darkness to take back your lives. It takes even more courage to speak up, and I admire those of you who do.
Both of us fell into this thing by accident. Literally, on a whim. I chose to keep more to the side, although I must confess to knowing the correspondence with Ilse. I know that my handling of things were frustrating for some. Either I wasn’t going in the right direction, or my censorship instincts weren’t quite right for some. I can only say that I did what fit my agenda, for which I thought I had the right because it was our blog. For us, it was just a blog. That is it. No personal strategy. We wrote what we wanted to write at any given moment, becuase we got tired of the same theme. Sometimes because there was nothing better. That was our vision, which really wasn’t a vision at all. And hey, it worked! Not to everyone’s liking, but we were getting three-thousand new, separate ip addresses a day, and it was growing. John Lennon was right. Half of life is in showing up.
I love and adore Ilse, and I adore her family. It broke my heart to see her threatened. I also admire her writing ability. It’s the very best. My momma told me early on, if you aren’t good, be with someone who is. My favorite writer is someoneone I know. She is absolutely brilliant, so if I’m picking a blog partner, picking the best is a no-brainer. I’m not deluded enough to not know who’s the talent on our blog.
Thanks to you folks who were so nice to us, and even those were critical. I read a lot of wisdom. Y’all have a lot to be proud of. I hope to meet some of you one day along my travels. I suspect I may.
Until then, look for us somewhere. We’ll be around.
Mark
Look, guys, since ya’ll are calling it quits, I suppose I can be honest now. First off, I must commend you guys for the work that you have done, considering you didn’t go through the AA ringer yourselves. That said, while I am impressed with your skills, and your management of this blog, I was nevertheless at times not so impressed with your lack of understanding that AA/NA is an evil, evil, degenerate cult which helps NO ONE.
I have previously stated on here that I believe AA/NA is a plague, a metastasizing cancer which just won’t die, and I don’t regret it. I don’t give a flying fuck if one of these powerless AA pussies comes at me. In fact, I hope they try something that fucking stupid. I own ten military-grade top-of-the-line German-bred Doberman Pinchers trained to kill intruders on sight, and I sleep with enough firepower under my pillow to be able to take care of any “tough guys” before they manage to take care of even two of the dogs. Even if they managed to get all ten outside dogs, there are still two that sleep with me. So, crazy 12-steppers, bring it, you bitches!
I do hope you guys will make your material available, including the comments, though. Seriously.
Jonny, Im starting another site called Leaving AA
i’ll be needing writers to contribute. Im still building it. It’s almost ready. But I agree. These fuckers are not gonna beat us. Those pro AA nutbags. Im ready!
Just an FYI for the uninformed: American variations of German breeds are a pathetic joke, so much so that all working dogs in the USA are imported, so if you haven’t stepped outside of the USA, you haven’t seen a real dog. Your neighbor’s American guard dog is a clown compared to the lowest of the low in any other country.
Please Watch Surviving Straight Inc!
Thanks Mark and especially Ilse.
(Ben Bradley, course Ken Ragge’s site should be available in eternity)
WSS xx (sad)
It was great while it lasted and served an important purpose. I hope things continue to go well for you both.
Who am I going to rake muck with now?
me. I have created and creating http://www.leavingaa.com its not done but it is up please go post there.
massive
Mark & Ilse,
Thank you for all your work to create this blog.
I’ve been “deprogrammed” for a while now but its blogs like this especially which serve as a nice reminder of the sober, yet brainwashed, sad, low self-esteemed and AA-dependant person I used to be.
When I found AA I thought I had unlocked the secret of the universe, only to discover 7 years later that I had been duped by what at first appeared to be a charming & wise group of people who just wanted to be sober and improve their lives… If only !
AA is a really unhealthy place where people go who are vulnerable, lonely and desperate – mostly because they haven’t found the true cause of their problems or simply haven’t yet found an effective solution.
Endless meetings and steps and bullshit that just doesn’t work is a sad and unnecessary way to spend your life.
Fortunately, I DO believe that AA is slowly dying.. I give it about 10-15 years before is treated like the outdated, unintelligent irrational load of 1930s garbage that is really is… and dies off completely
But, just like Mark and Ilse, there is a time to move on.. even from a much loved anti-AA place…
All the best to you all…
Bookmark deleted
zoo-Fortunately, I DO believe that AA is slowly dying.. I give it about 10-15 years before is treated like the outdated, unintelligent irrational load of 1930s garbage that is really is… and dies off completely.
Im with you. Last year they sold $100,000 less in BB from the previous year. Meetings in Los Angeles have been closing down one after another for the past 6-8 years.
I had an old sponsee ask me to take her to smart the other night in an email. She said her program was in the “can” I laughed and will go with her to SMART where there are NO Sponsor’s YEA!!!
Ilse Thank you for guiding me to open the new leaving aa blog and your friendship when I was still even in AA and trying to make it safer.
Im pretty bummed out about this whole thing but trust me I’ll get over it.
Many thanks, Mark and Ilse, for all your incredible work. This blog was extremely important in my coming to realize that I wasn’t crazy in coming to believe that AA just ain’t right!!
So what happened with the principle of “love and tolerance is our code?” Oh yeah, another one of those convenient principles…..
yea they are more like bullies and bullying is our code LOL
I am so sad today. This site has helped me. I thank you for it. Sigh, I’m wondering if hateful cruel people must always win right now in this world. I certainly hope not. Take care all.
Thank you all so much for being willing to spend your time here and to post about your experiences with AA and the other twelve step programs. Each and everyone of you helped me at a very trying time in my life.
Mark and Ilse, I thank you both for the time and energy you devoted to this blog. I hope each day both of you will remember how much good was accomplished and how many people you helped. I admire both of you for your willingness to help and the courage you displayed.
I don’t believe, “hateful cruel people must always win in this world”, I think these jerks caused AA a huge headache and a profound amount of bad promotion. We may not have ST, Ilse & Mark any longer, however, this Jimbo brought a lot of negative attention to his group and AA. It will be interesting how this all unfolds and how AA will cover this up??
Ilse & Mark, You duped me! =) I would have bet my life that you were former alcoholics. You both handle this site
ethically, compassionately and intelligently…..wait a minute, that doesn’t sound like a former AA member =)
Seriously, ST really helped me digest what was going on and helped me regroup at a time when I was most vulnerable. I will miss this site dearly for I have made so many virtual friends. Ones that I could trust and would help in a heart beat, unlike the people in the “rooms”. I have learned so much from you both and all that have posted concerning my emotions and deprogramming. This site/you both have been invaluable. Thank you so much and I wish the best for you both.
I’m very sad to see this blog end. It was much more than a blog, it became a community (and I suspect that’s what made it a burden for you too) – but the great thing was the lively discussions by this community.
I witnessed a level of intelligence, intellectual honesty, and growth in thought from the commenters on this blog which I’ve never witnessed anywhere else on the web. While there were some nasty arguments here and there, there was mostly a true search for understanding through open discussion and debate – without all the posturing and posing seen elsewhere.
I’m with JQ on keeping the comments available to read – because while I staunchly believe in individualism of the highest order – trusting your own judgment – it is incredibly affirming to see that others question this 12-step nonsense too. It was an intensely important experience in my life to finally meet other people who didn’t believe the AA/disease stuff – it was proof that I wasn’t alone or crazy. I believe that Stinkin-Thinkin gave others this same experience.
Thanks Mark and Ilse for providing such a great platform, the insightful posts, and of course the muckraking. Ilse – I know your book is going to be fantastic, because you get it. You’re far ahead of 99.999% of other people who think they understand addiction and “recovery.”
Thanks especially too, to all of the commenters who sought truth in your ST discussions. I’m positive that your words helped people to advance their thinking, build self-confidence, and see themselves out of both addiction and that nasty little self-destructive lifestyle known as recovery.
Thanks to all of you soldiers on the side of reason,
Steven Slate
http://www.thecleanslate.org/
Mark and ilse, thanks for commenting a second time. I had a couple of questions still lingering had about ST closing and those were cleared up.
I don’t think I’ll ever forget how my life changed after leaving AA/NA. Getting out and having my feelings and distaste for 12 step confimred by others made it possible for me to move on and productively start healing. Not only from addiction, but the psychologial mind fuck of AA.
Wow – 3,000 different isp hits a day is ginormous! Think of how many people looked through the pages without saying a word. Aye or nay they got an eyeful. How many more lives were sent on cue because of ST and partly because of us bloggers? Those that took the time to openly discuss experiences and misgivings have raised awareness to the insanity of it all. Thanks to everyone!
To the steppers that are happy to see ‘the end’ of ST: This is just the beginning. The cause will not be over until the world knows the truth.
Thanks again ST!
Good luck to both of you!!
And thanks to everyone of you for giving me some great – and thought provoking – reading!!
Thank you for the site,i’ve enjoyed reading on here, i’m an ex stepper and hate the cult with a vengeance,i used to spend a lot of my time venting about the steps/steppers,i’m sober for nearly 4 years without any groups and have found that i just don’t have time for all the negativity that steppers produce, i understand you both needing a break as it can be very tiresome.
Good luck to you and all the decent people here.:-}
Ilse, Have a little separation anxiety here….If I continue to post, will it keep ST open =) ??? I gotsa lotsa to say =) If that doesn’t work, what if we take turns moderating the site and writing thought provoking articles. You both could take a break and check in on your proteges. I know, that’s still working and not moving on. I only like change when I initiate it; if you guys didn’t provide such a positive, validating and resourceful service, I could kick you out of my heart anytime. We are in a morning period and should all meet at our first x steepers conference in Las Vegas or New Jersey (not starting anything-yet) to say HELLO/GOODBYE for closure and also celebrate the birth of Leaving AA.
I KNOW, I KNOW-CAROLYN JUST CUT THE CORD. I will miss you both dearly and the incredible service and help you have provided myself and countless others.
P.S. Ironically, I had my screen open to ST all day yesterday preparing my story that I had threatened everyone and when I hit send after editing all day and no knowledge of the second threats on you; it was lost-ST was shut down, unbeknownst to me. I put a blurb of my 3 1/2 week threat/suit above in case I should lose some of my friends by going in different directions and still wanted to share the craziness of being an activist. I hope I didn’t act inappropriately.
Ilse, during that tough time, you had me laughing and seeing the humor in this unbelievable situation-remember the religious Attorney who was observing his Holiest of days; was deprived of food and sleep for 10 days and still wanted to confer with me. Ugh, You showed me the “Comical” side of the chaos. And for that and much more, I THANK YOU!!!
Carolyn, separation anxiety here also, and after hearing you on Massive’s show today, I want to hear so much more from you, too! Ask her for my email, or rather, does anyone want to start a mailing list for a while for news/posts, an e-digest or something of the sort to be on? I’d love to be on something like that.
Isle and Mark, Thank you so much for providing me personally with a support and community as I lurked in the beginning. Now I am glad I blogged as much as I did. Cause this is over now and I am very sad about it, but I understand.
But PLEASE consider coming back after a break! It was many months after I posted and stopped on ST when I had been busy trying to make waves inside AA with my Make AA SAFER Pamphlet. ftg appeared on my blog asking how I was doin with my work. I felt so alone. I had just about given up but had not yet even considered leaving AA. I began talking ti Isle on the phone here and there and the Community Pages were another way many of us got closer in a more private forum. All this especially the community pages and gunthars radio show changed me along with the blog. then boom …I felt it
A community. I had emails and phone numbers and I talked with a few new friends as my blog still brought me horror stories of 13 stepping. I was no longer along. Now I hated AA and it became harder and harder for me to go, and listen to their crap. I finished my term as a GSR and as it ended last December I knew in my heart I was done with AA. ST was so instrumental for me.
I tried other forums but this one was the best and surely the liveliest and thought provoking.
GO and rest and live your lives but please consider returning!
You both will be missed and the blog is devastating for some of us. I am working on building something that has a forum and a place for people to chat. I realized with blogtalkradio I can put up a chat at anytime. I need to use that feature more.
Today on blogtalkradio Safer Recovery I am doing on show for Stinkin Thinkin! please call in at NOON PST 3 EST today 818-475-9211
Thanks Mark and ilse, and everyone who has posted on ST, it helped me make the sensible decision to quit AA and dedicate my life to…..well life not in AA meetings and controlled by dubious suggestions. Practical advice is much better…no spiritual program for me……so ST will be missed and thanks again for the support,advice and connection with like minded people.
All the very best to all whichever path they choose to take,
Marc
I do understand why you are ending the blog but I am so, so sad to see it go.
This blog played a huge role in my life. My husband has rarely posted here but he often recommends this site to others and describes it as saving his life. I know it did the same for many others and if in the future we have children, they will exist in part because of this blog.
I dont understand the reason for ending the blog so “abruptly”, without notice. If there is a reason, I fail to see it. Clearly, it has been a shock and a loss to everyone who benefited (thankyou for that Mark and Ilse) but also gave in return. Personally, at this time it seems a bit unfair to all those who were involved and completely unaware.
I was trying to meditate and all I did was cry. I am so sad about this site going away. Some of us really need community. I did. I do. I guess will have to start that group you and I have been talking about for months. Amy Lee Coy wants to join and I think Reader too. Iim sick to my stomach. Im not kidding I had so much anxiety this morning about this loss. I know you took it down for more reasons then that JB guy but to them and all the Pacific Group nutbags . Its a big win for them . WE must pick up here and rise up bigger then before. I’m not giving up. There needs to be a very big anti AA presence on the web. Its a very big problem in AA/NA and there is a secret world that they are covering up. It needs to stop!
Thanks so much for providing this website for all the people who really needed it like me, people who felt that they were about to lose it in AA. In the short time I made use of it,it inspired and opened the door in a lot of ways to personal healing, believing in my self, and learning to live guilt and fear free-everything AA didn’t want me to do. Please keep some of the archive of great posts available somehow if possible, I never got around to reading them all and I’m sure they’d help a lot of other people too. Thanks again. I wish you all the best.
Amy,
Before you go, I was in the middle of writing my story when all this went down. I din’t find out until it was done and tried to post in on the very same page I had opened in the wee hours of the day-lost it. However, I have been promising you and Sally specifically that I would post it. I gave an abbreviated, abbreviated version up above for you. Posted yesterday.
Isle,
I know you have (wanted) a life and this experience put your life in perspective and basically forced you to prioritize; LIFE, FAMILY, WORK and ENJOYMENT. We understand you need to do what’s right for you and we encourage it, BUT NOT NOW! Even a baby is weaned off a pacifier. FOR HEAVEN SAKES I JUST QUIT SMOKING COLD TURKEY, YOU CAN’T EXPECT ME TO DO THIS SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO SOON!!!!!
I’m just kidding (I’m immolating what you taught me {HUMOR} in dealing with the WAKALOONS). I will have to hit some AA meetings/members and take my frustration out on them. We sincerely want you to enjoy yourself and family. Keep all our addresses and WHEN (not letting you go yet) you start a new project, let us know.
you are too funny!!!!!!
I think we can all agree that besides the exceptional writing and the wonderful support we received here, one of the best things about this blog was the ease of navigation. Ilse or Mark, can you tell us what service you used or how you set it up in case someone wants to set up their own?
Ryan, can you put up a link to your blog? I think it’s an extremely important subject.
I’ve registered for the Orange forum and am awaiting approval.
SoberPJ, I think I’ll miss you most. Thanks for all your posts. You really helped me deprogram. Thanks everyone.
Carolyn,
Id like to correspond with you occasionally if you are interested. Have not started the work book yet but I will. Thanks for the recommendation. I truly enjoyed conversing with you on the blog. Massive has my email address. Otherwise, I wish you the best and thanks for the explanation above.
This has been a great resource–I hope you will keep archived material available.
ST provided me with exceptionally written information I could not find elsewhere. I learned a great deal through the discourse. Best wishes to everyone involved. Although it has come to an end the impact it had on me will be lasting.
I understand that it is “death threats” that are causing this web-site to be shut down? Could you please “OUT” the CONTENT AND SOURCE of these “threats” (I am sure it is from some myopic, radical, 12-Stepper!). One less anti-12-Step web-site on the Internet is NOT a good thing-even for a “short period” of time!
istj04- Yea
HIs name and his city and what he said exactly so we can all see what an idiot he is.
Johhny Quest, wow. Why not just get proactive and take your dogs and your guns to the local belltower?
Have a nice serene day! Oh, and now I wonder why Mark and Ilse would ever want to bury those wonderful comments! Classic stuff! Thanks!
they will not be buried!
I wanna know why “Cats” doesn’t have any categories down there at the bottom of this page. I like cats.
It’s neat how all these people, lots of whom weren’t really regular participants on the blog are showing up to comment about how ST helped them out. Very cool.
You guys did a good thing. Brownie points for everyone! xo
…except JD. No soup for you!
http://leavingaa.com/
EVERYBODY … thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Thanks C&E .. that was very kind ….
If we really examine the formidable spectrum that the 12 Step monopoly has at their disposal to coerce and intimidate detractors, it is quite interesting.
At the highest levels, they have corporate and government power through the front orgs like Hazelden and Betty Ford, plus legislation.
At the mid-level, they have sympathetic and dependent churches, courts, jails and more.
At the low level, they have violent and deviant wacko’s to do their bidding.
And all the while, general public opinion is very positive.
Defeating formidable opponents requires a more formidable force. Unfortunately, it will take more than a few blogs and sites that speak the truth to make this obscene and grotesque giant fall from power. But, there will come a time, hopefully soon, when they will have to answer for their atrocities. I may, or may not be involved, but when it happens, I will smirk and think to myself, “they finally got those bastards.” And it will be a good day indeed.
spj- I hope you are there. All this is true. It will take our blogs, documentaries, comedies, and serious drama’s dipicting the truth about AA.
It will take lawsuits filed, Attorney Generals written to, Laws changed, and the exposing of the truth in all these ways, victims speaking out.
It will take IRS investigations for all of the AA non profits not filing their taxes Central Offices ,Inter groups and the main Headquarters.
It will take another Documentary exposing the treatment AA Industry as well.
It will take the exposing of the 7 or so Pacific Group Clancy spin off groups. It will take rapists going to jail.
It will take people going undercover and posting it on youtube.
Need I say more. DId I leave anything out?
It will take a National Campaign to raise awareness about Alternatives. It will take money. It will take the kind of money that Marty Mann drummed up to make PSA and get them on radio, buses and late night TV.
AN expose on FRONTLINE would help. I TV series on HBO written by an ex stepper.
sbj,
Your comments were so full of wisdom and insightful and I loved your sense of humor. I got some of the hardiest laughs out of your post when I needed it most. I will really miss that.
Thank you, everybody. See you on the orange blog.
Thanks Amy …
Good job with the blog, y’all, and I’m glad I caught this message.
I came on to say (1) that earlier in the week there was a story on NPR about how will power was the most desired personality characteristic worldwide, and there was nothing wrong with that, and (2) tonight I called my father for his 87th and he was too drunk to speak, but no, that is not going to drive me to Al-Anon. !!!
I escaped 12 stepping aftereffects by reading ST and am truly glad to have found it.
Just TODAY I talked to an old friend for the 1st time since my last foray into recovery culture who likes to drink a little wine with dinner. In the parts of the world where my family comes from, this is not even remotely abnormal. Nor does she think it is. However, she has another friend who has gone AA in the last year who is trying to tell her otherwise. I was SO frustrated that I couldn’t just link this blog! I wrote down Stanton Peele’s URL and said to google Orange Papers, but at ST there were all the comments already of people expressing the same things she was, “She just has a worse new addiction, those damned meetings!” and, “You can’t do ANYTHING right in these AA people’s eyes!”. These are actually her quotes. Damn, I could go on about how much I miss the site already, but the worst part is not being able to link people here who are just coming to not trust the “program”.
And someone out there is reading this thinking we’re all in “withdrawals” because we were just “cross-addicted” to this blog. Ahhhh…..there is still work to be done.
Sorry to see yet another site close that’s been helpful in exposing the Cult atrocities.
Over a period of 6/7 years i’ve seen quite a few sites spring up and then close down because of personal threats,Blamedenial was one of them, it takes a lot to keep going.
I do believe that Mondotuna and his cronies (liferingbob, petra etc) have played a large part in disrupting sites that are anti A/A,they assume a number of different identities, Lifering is teetering on the edge as an alternative to A/A, a power crazy moderator (margit) with A/A sympathies has all but shut the doors, we all know how Lifering was deceived by making mondotuna the moderator, Ah well, i believe in Karma and right will prevail in the end.
Perse,Amy,Carolyn, WSS, c &e, sober pj,etc….. I don’t know what I would have done without you.
Perse,at my meeting last Fri, this woman was talking about how drinking “took her away from her religion” and she had to get back to it(step 3). Oh,really? Was she planning on joining the convent before she discovered vino? BS
I’m at massive’s leavingaa.com and I’ll look at orange,etc. I’m sentenced til March, and then I still need to deprogram after that..it’s hard
Wow, what a shock! I’m currently travelling in India and this is the first time I’ve been online for a few days. What’s all this about death threats?
I can really understand your decision, Ilse and Mark (I think!) but please keep the archive accsssible. You’ve both written some brilliant articles that should never be lost!
Thank you both for everything . . . and I really hope it’s not goodbye for ever!
HS
Thanks, for everything….I’ve been lurking forever, but you helped me so much!
Been a blast. Best to all. And thanks.
Massive, We will slowly consume them like a cancer (I can say that cuz I’m a survivor 1yr). Jimbo blew a hole in the side of the SS Alcoholics Anonymous; now we continually chip away and don’t let them mend it. We regroup and hit hard.
I was asked today, “What would you do if you had 1 year to live”. Without thinking I blurted, “I would move up my goals and feed them steroids”; surprised me! That’s what we need to do to AA or anyone in our way. A multi tiered plan.
Amy, would love to communicate with someone LIKE MINDED, =) We will have to ascertain how to switch emails privately. I’m sure we can illicit help from someone here.
C&E I am still very appreciative (grateful was ruined by the wakaloons) and moved when you posted Christina Aguilera’s “Beautiful”; I had it added to my I tunes. Thanks, that was another rough spot Massive and I were in and it help lift my spirits. =)
Jill, it has been fun. I feel like I’m writing in everyone’s YEARBOOK. I’m going to send you the largest ball of yarn rolled around the most obnoxious AA member. Talk to you too.
Perseph Absolutely keep in touch-get you working with us
SoberPJ, Thanks for all your insight and thought provoking comments (which I waited for someone else to comment on, so I knew what the hell you were saying). Just kidding-good stuff.
I could go on; I will miss each and every one of you. I too have finally DELETED my ST book marker.
So it is true, if I keep posting this will not end =)
Last observation; I learned one thing in the “ROOMS”. How to swear FFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCKKKKKK.
Never said it before or heard it so much as in the meetings.
Taking on AA comes with a price. AA Membership depends with a history of deviant behavior with alcohol, and, sometimes, a great deal of other things. Cessation of drinking does little to fix the other things, and, most of the time, just makes them worse.
As someone who has been a longtime AA member, I know who goes to meetings, I know how disorganized their thinking can be, and I know how that thinking can result in dangerous behavior. I have worried about your personal safety for a long time.
You both contributed immeasurably to my decision to leave. You gave me permission to accept what my mind told me was the truth, and to see that there was a life after leaving AA. You let me know that I wouldn’t be alone, and that I could be free.
For that, and much, much more, I want to thank you. But, because I have grown fond of both of you over time, I am so glad you have come to this decision.
Stay in touch, my friends.
I’ve had some decidedly mixed feelings these past few months about this blog, some of its members, and that sort of thing. I have also had some mixed feelings about my relationship with AA in that I was not totally comfortable to hate it as I did. However, I do feel that reading ppl’s experiences with and feelings toward AA, and the way these feelings and experiences mirrored my own has been invaluable. Talking about all of this stuff here helped me leave. And I am glad to be outta there, as I’ve mentioned maybe 24,000 times already.
Like so many great things: Seinfeld, Big Love, the alternative fashion movement born out of the 90′s, and the seemingly perfect marriage of Sonic Youth, nothing in this world lasts forever, no matter how fucking amazing.
Hopefully running into members on random sites, listserves, etc. here will punctuate my wanderings all over this crazy internet. But until we meet again, remember this, in the words of one of the best musicals ever written: “All the misfits and the losers, yeah, you know you’re rock and rollers. Spinning to… your rock and roll. Life up your hands.” -Hedwig
Sorry to hear you go. I really appreciated having this forum around since it permitted me so often to vent, and to exchange with some really intelligent sensitive people.Thanks again. I`m sure we will all reconnect eventually ,or in the meantime ,once in a while somewhere else.
Bye people!
http://leavingaa.com
i have been working on it alot. PLease check it out and see what you think.
massive
Me either!
I’m not leaving until 13th Step Pierre weighs in. Nuff said
Me either!!
Sorry to see you go and a quick note
of appreciation for all you have done both Mark and Ilse and posters to the site.
I left AA and reading your site helped me get
through some rough days. Best of luck!!
“a quality of life decision” = “we got paying work that we’ll restart this site to hype the shit out of, just as soon as it can be pre-ordered on Amazon”
I, for one, can’t wait for Mark and Ilse to sign my tits after they give a public reading and/or a puppet show from the book version of this moronic site at some coffee shop or chicken-wings bar.
Everyone, please look forward to the Stinkin’ Thinkin’ Handbook, forward by 13steppierre.
I thank you and Mark for paying attention. I thnk of you all with having the highest of integerty.
I applaud your courage and can only imagine the lunacy that you had to deal with on a constant basis. Exposing cults and dealing with their ardent followers is not something that everyone can do.
Thank you again for paying attention and being honest in what was posted. You both gave a voice to the survivors of sociopathic cultic abuse , you really have helped many heal from the lunacy of those who try to force their will over free thinking human beings
Many people were able to put their particular cult in its proper perspective from reading your blog, not just AA/NA ,all cults that were based on the mother of them all, Synanon.
Though I did not know you all personally, I cannot express in my words how grateful I am to you and Mark , strangers that had the backs of human beings because it was the right thing to do. It was nice to know that altrusim is not dead and your fellow blogophiles spoke the truth and spoke from the heart.
I will miss this blog. I wish you and Mark much peace and good thoughts as you continue on the path of yours that is no simply highway.
peace
Matt Hoffman
Well said
I’m gonna miss you the most, scarecrow
EXPOSE AA is a group of people united for the purpose of…
Exposing AA as a dangerous religious cult.
Helping others to overcome substance abuse.
Endorsing new perspectives in recovery.
There are no dues for Expose AA membership. We are an abstinence based, on-line support group. Our common goal is freedom from all addictive substances rather than moderation or switching vices. We do not endorse any single method for achieving sobriety. Sobriety is a choice, and the best recovery plans are developed focusing on an individuals needs. There are no sponsors at Expose AA. We are friends united toward specific goals. You are an Expose AA member if you choose to be one.
http://expaa.webs.com/
This new site has a community forum that allows you to send private messages, make friends, and all kinds of other goodies.
The forums will be moderated by myself, as well as others from the ST community who are willing to volunteer.
This is a free website and so no money will EVER be made off of this venture.
Furthermore… This website will remain up as long as the provider hosts the site. I will not change my mind and take this site down due to lack of participation, or for any other reason.
Feel the need to write a lengthy article about AA??? Contact me through the community pages and maybe we can dedicate a full page to your work.
This is a team effort folks… I’ve set up some of the basics, now I need your help to make this work.
Great G2K! I switched my vice to ice cream, preferably chocolate. Can I still join?
I look forward to your book Ilse. It’s gonna kick ASS!
What We Need to Make Expose AA Work
We need people who are dedicated to this cause to PARTICIPATE in the development of this website. Participation is voluntary. No one can make you do anything you don’t want to do. If you have a burning desire to see AA exposed you are welcome to contribute articles.
Ideas for articals…
A brief history of AA
How it doesn’t work
Why AA is a cult
Religion in disguise
Alternatives to AA
There are a million things you could write about, but I think we only have 10 free pages, so if you do want to write make it something worth reading.
We’ll also need participation on the community pages to fill them up enough to be attractive to new folks seeking escape, or answers to their addiction problems.
I’m not much of a writer, so here is what I will do.
I will moderate the forums and handle the technical aspects of setting up the site.
Now, I’ve had a couple of false starts with this effort in the past. You have my word that I will not take this site down for any reason. If it takes me ten years to develop the site by myself, then that’s what I’ll do.
Anyone interested in participating in the development of this site can contact me through the community pages.
Thanks in advance for your anticipated support.
Let’s make this happen!
I love it GUnthar. I signed up.
Muckraking, in the time-honored sense of the word! AA and 12-Step is has a monopoly. Sure there are some alternatives, but none of these alternatives are offered in your general addictions treatment facility. And none of these alternatives have the power to lobby in Washington the way that AA does (by proxy, of course – Hazelden and Betty Ford, for instance, who hire the same lobbying firms that the alcohol industry does, by the way – do some research on opensecrets.org, which is a website that will tell you who’s giving money to whom and for what – just the facts) to get insurance money.
Note that those two redefinitions — sobriety and recovery — allow A.A.-dominated drug and alcohol treatment facilities, which are financed with public tax dollars, to advertise jobs as being reserved for people who are “in recovery, with at least 6 months of sobriety”, and then only hire other members of the Twelve-Step religion. It sounds like a nice hire-the-handicapped policy, but it is really religious discrimination, which violates many different laws, but they seem to be getting away with it anyway.
Im so stuck in my old A.A thinking ! I am a “newcomer” to ST found this last week. So what !
No stupid sober day count social pecking order nonsence.
The Alcoholics Anonymous survivors movement is a loose coalition of people who, united by the resentment that they have been harmed or betrayed by Alcoholics Anonymous,The “A.A survivors” advocate in favor of alcohol treatment alternatives, or just the right to freedom from the system, for those diagnosed with (or simply accused of being afflicted) with alcoholism.
CA you cut and paste this over to my new site? http://www.leavingaa.com
I will make a new tab.
Well, if there is going to be a “Stinkin’ Thinkin’ Handbook”, I do hope that it gets “conference approved” at the next big GSO meeting. How many votes do we need………
I’ve signed up too Gunthar. I’m going to try and put together an article about how having an alcoholic loved one does not infect you with the mysterious disease of codependency and how the “wisdom” trotted out at al-anon is in many ways the very worst thing you can possibly do, for you and your loved one.
I am looking forward to the monetization of the efforts of Stinkin-Thinkin. I mean, in a capitalist society where money and power are the only things that can overturn an incumbent organization, I say go for it ! And get rich and totally successful and use that position to influence change. How the hell do you think AA got where it is today? The argument from pro-AA’s about how it is somehow wrong to capitalize on one’s efforts is truly ignorant. It also makes a great smoke screen by accusing others of exactly what they have done to get the power they have and what they continue to do to maintain that power. Make a Stinkin-Thinkin Handbook, get on TV, get on the New York Times Best Seller list, get totally and gloriously wealthy and use it to expose the deceitful, manipulative, abusive, faith-healing nonsense that is the program of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Soberpj-
I agree an Stinkin- Thinkin Handbook .There you go it’s already written here on the blog. Hire an editor and go get rich! We need it as a real resource in Libraries !!!
I think SoberPJ has something there, Guys. Go bat crazy wakaloon and PROFIT, KILL THEM, PROFIT, BURY THEM, PROFIT and take us to dinner. =) That’s democracy and how my tummy works.
There is a library of excellent material available for reading. As a member of X-Steppers, on our former site we had a long list of material which included:
12 Step Horror Stories
AA Not The Only Way
Sober for Good
Over the Influence
Women for Sobriety: Jean Kirkpatrick’s bios
Sex, Drugs, Gambling, Chocolate: Thomas Hovrath founder of SMART Recovery
I think if you’re organizing another site, you might consider adding a library of resources.
Kelly
It is great to see new blogs starting up to fill the void! You guys are better writers than you think!
See you at the other blogs.
http://www.nadaytona.org exposing the dangers to minors
that are sent,mandated or dragged to by their parents! Stop the government sponsored child abuse in AA/NA!
The first good website exposing this stuff that has a button CLICK HERE TO DONATE out comes my visa card so they can hire web designers buy servers… like at http://www.mindfreedom.org
or CCHR.org
SoberPJ,
I see what you are saying about money, and how AA has used it to its benefit. I think it is horses for courses – I have no issue with people making money; hell without money we can’t eat. I do, however, take offense when people try to make money covertly. I believe in being transparent. It is not for the sake of ‘rigorous honesty’ but rather because a failure to be so can come back to bite you further down the line. Personally I have chosen not to make money from my anti AA work for the simple reason I do not need the motivation of dollars to propel me – I have a very simple, and at times, raw passion to expose AA for what it is. In terms of time and resources, I am well out of pocket for the work I have done. That said, I have donated to many sites online that challenge AA including Stinkin-Thinkin and the Orange Papers. I did so because I wanted to support something I believe in. If I had only been left with the choice to ‘purchase’ something, I am not sure I would have done so.
I think what needs to happen in order for this ‘movement’, or whatever we call it, to be successful does not lie with the creation of wealth. AA is so deep routed in society, including billion dollar industries, for example treatment centres and even, to some extent, Hollywood, that fighting fire with fire, if you like, is unlikely to be the answer. In many respects AA is not the only reason for this; where people see a problem, they look for a solution and, for many, doing nothing is simply not an option. I think this is where AA capitalises the most, at a time when people and their families are most vulnerable. It offers a course of action, albeit an ineffective, if not dangerous, one. Both AA members, and their families, feel that participation in AA provides some sign of remorse and, crucially, the hope that change is not too far away. Perhaps that is why I often do my utmost to separate AA from society there by trying to show that it is not only AA, and its members, that endorse its program, but also the wider public. Sometimes I wonder whether we are attempting to persuade the wrong people of our very genuine concerns. Again, a good example of this is going after an AA member that is guilty of a heinous crime – all it proves is that person is guilty of a crime and that they have been to AA. For those in AA, and the public at large, this is not going to be shocking, yet to us, including me, it is a grave concern. (Why were they sent to AA in the first place? Who sent them? And who continues to advise AA to people when criminals are sent there too?)
On the other hand, if we could prove beyond reasonable doubt that exposure to Step One, ie powerlessness, leads to say, binge drinking , I think we’d be onto a winner. (“The first step leads to low self-esteem, learned helplessness, per¬sonal irresponsibility, and binge drinking. The first step is a step toward disaster; it has no redeeming features.” (Bufe, 1998) Available here – http://blamedenial.co.uk/thesteps.html ) Even a small victory like getting AA to advise newcomers that AA is not the only way, or of more urgency, warning the newcomer of sexual predators, would be a huge step in the right direction. I don’t think we will destroy AA by making its destruction our modus operandi . However, we can, slowly but surely, strive to educate people on what is wrong with the program. To make money from this, someone would have to offer an alternative, yet many of us do not even regard addiction per se as an illness, or a problem in and of itself. Addiction is a secondary condition that masks primary issues, in my eyes, which I add for the sake of clarity.
The most powerful thing we can do is unite in our actions. That is why I make a point of linking other sites wherever I can, in my videos, on my website, etc. I have felt of late that we, and in particular Mike (we are separate people by the way
), are not that popular on Stinkin Thinkin. Of course this saddens me somewhat, but I suspect this is because we challenge people on both sides of the fence. (I only got involved in this 6 years ago because I set out to prove Orange wrong and ended up proving him right!) I know how to maximise hits et al., but, ultimately, how does that help our cause, especially if all those hits come from the already converted? Further, and perhaps of more importance, if we are to succeed we need to engage anyone that is willing to challenge the program, regardless of their intensity and anger, or lack thereof, towards it.
Some might argue that this is contrived, but I do not see it that way. I’ll agree with points that I agree with, regardless of anything. If an AA member contacts me on Youtube and says they are appalled by the manner in which AA subtly claims to be the only way, I’ll engage with them. Similarly, if a member writes to me expressing concern for a vulnerable newcomer, of course I am going to reply. Not all members of AA are terrible people, just as we are not all dry drunks, whatever the hell that means.
Finally, many of us, if not the majority, were once in AA. This is a critical point for me [us] to remember because having been members, somehow we reached the decision to leave. If we can tap into those reasons, we’d not only reach people like us, but also many of the people on the periphery around them. First and foremost, it is important to speak our individual truths; don’t get me wrong, but as so many on this blog have expressed a desire for us to become more effective, I felt driven to offer my views on how we might achieve that.
Again, just my thoughts.
Fond regards,
Jimmy (B l A m E)
‘No’ uttered from the deepest conviction is better than a ‘Yes’ merely uttered to please, or worse, to avoid trouble. – Mohandas Gandhi
Great quote – it led me to searching Youtube and I found this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dX9GTUMh490
Hope you are well,
Jimmy
Ugh..I have to go to a court ordered cult meeting tomorrow night. Flash mob, anyone?
Muckraking, in the time-honored sense of the word!
Eleven—Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion;
Court order slips signed.
Treatment Centers, Rehabs
They broke there own rules. A.A probley did work for people who were attacted back in the day.
Hazelden and Betty Ford, for instance, who hire the same lobbying firms that the alcohol industry does, by the way – do some research on opensecrets.org, which is a website that will tell you who’s giving money to whom and for what – just the facts) to get insurance money.
These young men and women today in 2011, for many of them, these treatment centers telling them all that chapt 5 stuff makes many of them feel hopeless, doomed to a death from alcoholism and addiction. Then many go out on a mission, thinking something like “Im going to hell in a bucket anyway, at least in going to enjoy the ride”.
They seem to have been born that way.
I found this site only 8 days ago, but I saw all this on my year long ride through “recovery”, there was a body count. R.I.P
If I spout any usable NEW ideas, use it to help people.
Thanks
This is indeed a shock, and a sad day for me, and the many others who’ve found a genuine place in the sun here. I don’t know all of the reasons, large or small, that you are shutting down, I certainly hope that you’ll resurface again somehow, somewherre soon.You guys have been the Davids to AA’s perverted, twisted Goliath. Thank you, Thank you, Thank You!!! Please send any new information on upcoming places and times where/when you, or some Phoenix Bird of truth will rise up to provide the best counter-force I’ve yet found to the wacky lost souls that push the cultish double a crap. Thanks to Ken Ragge, and all the others, who’ve provided a forum for us to be heard. In the name of all that’s truly holy, in the name of Truth, Thank you, you will be greatly missed.
One more for old times sake… http://web.archive.org/web/20110514034941/http://stinkin-thinkin.com/faqrs/
thanks g2k. i cannot believe i am struggling with this blog being over, as i was um, done with it.
itstare
severaI st readers are at the orage bIog
WWS
Gunthar! THANKS for that. Sweet & sad. PLEASE BRING IT BACK!!!!
ok . nevermind…I understand Isle & Mark…..:(
Muckraking, in the time-honored sense of the word!
Design a new site as good as this dot org !
http://www.cchr.org Muckraking Psychiatry
It makes step 2 A.A look like a real good idea to me.
Real good idea that step 2
step 2 sais god right ? not that power greater nonsence.
So sad!! Ya all did so great and helped me see AA for what it really is. Shit whoever takes this on, go add daily strength’s AA peeps to the cult conversion list. Killed off their own group over there and they could use some non AA. I’ll see you at expose and orange.
http://www.cchr.org , what the 12 step industry
does is drug everyone up , then send them to A.A
They use this quack medicine http://www.cchr.org
The “Disease concept” sells.
Ask your doctor for a “CHEMICAL IMBALANCE TEST”
Glory be to muckraking !
Jill
)?
How’s the for a flash mob (still get chill from watching it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXh7JR9oKVE
As for the meeting you might try this (AA bullshit bingo), although standing and hollering ‘bullshit’ may not be such a good idea.
http://www.angelfire.com/tx3/rebeccaoz/AA/aabsbingo.html
Thanks, FKABB!
They’re great!
LOL @Jill
I’d love to join you in a flash mob.
Kelly
KellyRyan!
Fantastic! Maybe- if we could be gently disruptive, gently argumentative, and Consume All The Cookies And Coffee – maybe then the AA’a will call the Courts and tell them to stop sentencing people!
Did you see massive’s http://www.leavingaa.com ?
Jill
I have Gunthar’s and Massive’s site’s bookmarked. I plan to join and contribute, hopefully, in November.
We can always offer a safe haven for those who’ve been court anointed into oxymoronic spiritual recovery.
I was one of those who upon leaving AA needed a good amount of emotional support and I got it.
Kelly
Kelly Ryan- I look forward to you contributing to my new blog http://www.leavingaa.com please send me A topic and story we can post on the front page. I wanted to leave it about ST for a least a week.
makeaasafer@gmail.com I think you have it.
had an idea as I drove past the LA Mission from occupy la…this is where Clancy I gets he’s newcomer who are so desperate. Im going down there with a camera and my “IS 12 STEP NOT WORKING FOR YOU?” postcards when they arrive and IM handing them out to the homeless. I m going to make a T shirt that SAYS
Empowered 2011
powerlesss 1936
you choose
Then on the back its going to list the 12 step alternatives !!!
I just spoke on the horn in Downtown..it was so amazing to speak out.
I have some other anti AA activist ideas but Im not putting them up here LOL
WHo in LA wants to help me please contact me at makeaasafer@gmail.com
careful massive, the stuff the went down in oakland is *fucked* up.
I know its very very fucked up that they hurt him Scott, Things need to change everywhere it seems. Im going back to occupy tomorrow Again. Its peaceful in LA right now.
Here’s another one of our UK friends sent which might help anyone there avoid the cult groups:- http://aacultwatch.co.uk/default.aspx
This must have been serious. You know it’s only AA folks who seem to be so very sick. They say they have no structure well they need it so people who go there are not manipulated by sociopaths. Sorry to see the site close.
Jill,
Bring some chocolate laxative brownies. They will eat ‘em up because they are FREE!!!!!! =) This is intended as humor and not medical advice to take care of the bs in the rooms. =)
Ah haha Carolyn!
Yeah! And they have to wait til after the meeting to have the brownies – because I have to wait til after the meeting to get my signed court paper. We’re doin it My way! Plus, I don’t want to be anywhere near them when the magic happens!
omg LOL!!!!!
or Medical M brownies!
Sorry to see this blog go. It has been educational and fun to participate in. I wish MA, FTG and all of you the best.
@Its Not rare
I just watched the CCHR piece on the DSM and found it very interesting. However, I cannot help but be skeptical when this organization has been founded by Scientology!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRJ38y4Jn6k
haha.
It’s sad seeing this blog go because it was my portal into the insanity of the AA subculture – the guy who burned down the meeting house, all those drunk drivers who got off because they were in AA, the crazy AA advocates who would show up to rant, the fact that there is a 12 step group for people who think too much (!)….the AA culture reminded me of the grinding stupidity of the Fundamentalist Christian schools I went to as a child, the contempt for the students and the smug, pat answers those people had to the big questions. AA needs to go away, and I think that Stinkin’ Thinkin’ was helping it toward oblivion.
Today at 2 pm PST 5 EST Ryan and Massive will discuss AA and SUICIDE. PLease post in any and all forums you might know about this show. Ryan has started a blog to tell these stories. http://www.steppingonsuicide.blogspot.com please join us if you can or you can archive it later. http://www.blogtalkradio.com/saferecovery
818-475-9211 Thanks Isle and Mark…can you get the archives up soon I have been giving out my new postcards and u guys were all over it. At least we have Orange-Papers.org
It looks like the Expose AA website is going to be taken offline because of bandwidth issues (too many people visiting the site for it to be a free site)
I’d encourage anyone who is interested in keeping the effort going to visit http://leavingaa.com/
Stinkin’ Thinkin’ is back up, in archive form. We might continue to tweak.
There are also a couple of new posts up.
Im sure 13steppierre will be pleased to hear the news.
I was just looking at the new museum blog, and reading MA and ftg’s comments there. Though on many levels, I am glad for this blog’s good bye, as it exacerbated the crazy straw that is my filter for life in a huge way, it also changed me for the good. I thought Ilise’s video to mark was so sweet. And Ilse, I know I sent you some borderline shitty, whiny emails over the summer, but mostly you’ve been a badass, overly hip in a good way, folk hero to me and you will always be inside me, your perfect fucking message and your perfect writing.
As I can never seem to truly depict how I am feeling or thinking myself, with my verbose, wannabe writerly ways, I will leave you with this perfect Jennifer Egan quote:
“What I am afraid of:
That I am a grown up woman coming back to this place after so many years./ That my parents are gone and our house isn’t ours anymore./ It’s a broken down ruin with no one in it./ LIVING HERE TOGETHER WAS SO SWEET./ EVEN WHEN WE FOUGHT./ I FELT LIKE IT WOULD NEVER END./ I’LL ALWAYS MISS IT. ” -Jennifer Egan
Thank you, S.T. xo
Sorry to see this end! I hope I’ve sent some attention … and traffic … your way. Best of luck to you.